Coyote Bullets vs. Varmint Bullets

[jrbhunter]

Recently we've been jumping around with random discussions in various threads, which is fine, but I wanted to start a discussion about bullet performance for future reference.  Feel free to share your experiences or research or autopsies, positive or negative, about whatever you're shooting.  We can jump off on tangents like "This one time...." but I hope this thread hangs around a while and becomes a resource for guys messing with new rifles or new bullets.

I was skinning some critters on Sunday and noticed how my 45gr Hollow Point (From a 22-250) had performed EXACTLY as I'd hoped with shot placement square in a coyotes shoulder from a 170 yard broadside angle.  I also had a petite red fox skinned out that was shot through the lungs with the same bullet at the same distance.  I was really tickled with the bang/flop performance in both scenarios and it was even more impressive after they were skinned.  I planned to take pictures, measurements and do a little autopsy but my carcass guy showed up and I still had a couple coons to shuck out for him.

Anyways, to me it's not about how bullets perform in the perfect scenario.  Many poor bullet choices will perform well in PERFECT scenarios.  To me the whole discussion about "Coyote Capable Rifles" boils down to the threshold of mass/energy that it takes to kill CALLED coyotes CONSISTANTLY.  More specifically, coyotes of the size I'm shooting, at the ranges I'm familiar with and in unfortunate angles on the neck & shoulder, because that's what calling scenarios often leave us with.  Those shots require some penetration, not just shock and explosive expansion. 

I'm no bullet or rifle expert, they're all just tools to me.  I've learned more by doing things wrong than anything else and unfortunately that's left some gimp coyotes running around.  That said, I absolutely hate the concept of shooting coyotes with "Varmint Bullets" in centerfires smaller than 243.   Anything in the 20-60 grain range of polymers, fragmenting or otherwise explosive bullets just makes me grit my teeth.  I've had bad experiences with them personally, so I've settled on a variety of hollow points for my rifles.

I was messing around with some elevation & windage charts online today and saw a link to Youtube videos about bullet performance.  Eventually I stumbled into a couple clips that really impressed me and made me think.    Take a look at these two videos.  The first one is a gel test performed by a groundhog shooter, obviously he wants some explosive damage, but I think he's also highlighting why we shouldn't be using these bullets on larger game like coyotes.  The 2nd video is along the same lines, it shows how explosive a V-Max is and how the pressure affects internal soft tissue.   These two videos really raised my eyebrows, what do you guys think?

YOUTUBE LINK: BALLISTIC GEL 17HMR, 20VT, 22-250

YOUTUBE LINK: 22-250 55GR V-MAX PRESSURE WAVE

[ta17rem]

Good vid.s. I look for three things in a bullet, one how it performs on the targeted animal and how it performs at varies distances and how well it travels at long distance shots. I will use a H.P. in most cases with the soft points right behind.. Some cal.s I like to use the med. weight bullet that's available vrs. light or heavy. Seem to have the best luck with them... Only exception is when shooting one of my 17 center fires, then I like the heaviest bullet available which is a 30 gr. bullet.. I can see and understand Jason's choice for a 45 gr. .sp./ H.P., good fur bullet and in most cases will go inside (under skin) before it explodes and dumping all of its energy inside, that's what you should expect from a good bullet.. A heavy bullet or bullets that go through and through don't do much damage and behave just like a fmj bullet, small blood channel and a coyote that just keeps on going and going... (might be a gelatin test with a FMJ out the somewhere)
With a 17 centerfire I can have it work both ways on red fox and coyotes.. Will just stick with the bigger cal.s for now..
Its seems with the bigger cal. (22-6mm) its pretty tuff to get a bullet or cartridge that will do all as far as penetration and keeping hides in tact when dealing with different size Pred. Some of the lighter bullets can do it on avr. but lack in down range performance at longer distances, wind sends them all over the place.. Solution is to go up in weight a little and you gain another 100-200 yds depending on bullet brand and make. The down fall by doing so is the little critters are going to have more hide damage.. Speed should also be matched with bullet design and weight and what critter you plan to shoot with it.. I could never really find a 22-6mm that I was completely happy with when it came to using it as a dual role cartridge so ending up just getting another rifle or two and set up for a particular pred. Its kind of like golf, just grab another club designed to do the job at hand...
For bullet performance I like a bullet that will go inside and dump all of its energy there inside. When skinning a few coyotes out I like to see a lot of tissue damage under the skin, large area of jello and no bullet frags close to entrance. In flight performance I want a bullet that will also go the distance I plan to shoot with out having to make much of a correction if any for drop or wind...
At times though I have to use a plastic tip bullet due to not many bullets being made for a certain cal. and perhaps discuss this later on..

[xeroci999]

Recently we've been jumping around with random discussions in various threads, which is fine, but I wanted to start a discussion about bullet performance for future reference.  Feel free to share your experiences or research or autopsies, positive or negative, about whatever you're shooting.  We can jump off on tangents like "This one time...." but I hope this thread hangs around a while and becomes a resource for guys messing with new rifles or new bullets.

I was skinning some critters on Sunday and noticed how my 45gr Hollow Point (From a 22-250) had performed EXACTLY as I'd hoped with shot placement square in a coyotes shoulder from a 170 yard broadside angle.  I also had a petite red fox skinned out that was shot through the lungs with the same bullet at the same distance.  I was really tickled with the bang/flop performance in both scenarios and it was even more impressive after they were skinned.  I planned to take pictures, measurements and do a little autopsy but my carcass guy showed up and I still had a couple coons to shuck out for him.

Anyways, to me it's not about how bullets perform in the perfect scenario.  Many poor bullet choices will perform well in PERFECT scenarios.  To me the whole discussion about "Coyote Capable Rifles" boils down to the threshold of mass/energy that it takes to kill CALLED coyotes CONSISTANTLY.  More specifically, coyotes of the size I'm shooting, at the ranges I'm familiar with and in unfortunate angles on the neck & shoulder, because that's what calling scenarios often leave us with.  Those shots require some penetration, not just shock and explosive expansion. 

I'm no bullet or rifle expert, they're all just tools to me.  I've learned more by doing things wrong than anything else and unfortunately that's left some gimp coyotes running around.  That said, I absolutely hate the concept of shooting coyotes with "Varmint Bullets" in centerfires smaller than 243.   Anything in the 20-60 grain range of polymers, fragmenting or otherwise explosive bullets just makes me grit my teeth.  I've had bad experiences with them personally, so I've settled on a variety of hollow points for my rifles.

I was messing around with some elevation & windage charts online today and saw a link to Youtube videos about bullet performance.  Eventually I stumbled into a couple clips that really impressed me and made me think.    Take a look at these two videos.  The first one is a gel test performed by a groundhog shooter, obviously he wants some explosive damage, but I think he's also highlighting why we shouldn't be using these bullets on larger game like coyotes.  The 2nd video is along the same lines, it shows how explosive a V-Max is and how the pressure affects internal soft tissue.   These two videos really raised my eyebrows, what do you guys think?

YOUTUBE LINK: BALLISTIC GEL 17HMR, 20VT, 22-250

YOUTUBE LINK: 22-250 55GR V-MAX PRESSURE WAVE




Thank you, it's very interesting))